The Bible says that leaders are held to a stricter standard. Do you practice that yourself? That is the way it is handled in our church. Im not suggesting religious communities shouldnt have core beliefs and clear tenets of faith. Did ANC follow typical ecclesiastical procedures regarding their change in position regarding an important, divisive, and controversial doctrine? Approach them directly; raise your concerns respectfully; where appropriate and reasonable, invite a third party into the discussion. I do think Christians have adopted some culturally normative communication patterns; engaging in reflexive critique via social media and being far too easily offended, among them. I do support healthy dialogue which I guess you are saying is lacking here. But, please tell me, where did Jesus call it a sin ? Homosexuality isnt the only sin there are other sins but since this is the topic here being discussed-Well church is for everyone-its for the sick not the well. It was also the official position of ANC. It isnt love to just not disagree with someone. Yes, given that particular act is really a sin in Gods eyes, truth, not opinion. To promote some other Christ is, yes, blasphemy, and it is false. Anyone who writes a damning or imperious or condescending comment on their blog is only showing they have no such concern for the person Approach them directly; raise your concerns respectfully; where appropriate and reasonable, invite a third party into the discussion. I cant imagine how this approach would lead a person down the wrong path. JM changes his Facebook information to relay that he is no longer employed by the Free Methodist Church. Because its not showing right now. Rae, hes not slamming anyone. Praise His holy, beautiful name. Polygamy was still occurring in the New Testament wealthy Jews. Youre at church to get help for any kind of sin not just this one, not to have it smiled upon so that no one will be offended. Now on top of trying to figure out what the bible is saying (apart from the voices of all the teachers) I have to identify and correct all the non-biblical stuff I was taught. Notice that disagreeing with a persons position on a theological issue isnt one of them. Frank, I have great difficulty taking seriously anything said by someone who refers to an eternal truth from the Bible. This is a gospel issue. Seriously. We have to look at all the Bible to draw our conclusions. Get off of youre throne bro, youre clueless. The person is not called out publically, they are called in in love. Typos! No, Jesus didnt specifically say that polluting the earth is wrong, but it shows disdain to God who created it. The festival welcomes and encourages artists from any discipline to join us in a week-long celebration of student-led performance. Will you explain that that was okay back then but not now? This is a core gospel issue. In the Nicene Creed, Christians declare our belief in the four key attributes of the church when we say, [We believe] in one, holy, catholic. TAKE INITIATIVE. If outsiders hold together and build something new, it could be a good thing. Does this however mean that people who are homosexual are not welcome to attend church? Because this teacher is teaching self-justification for sin rather than justification through repentance and the cross. so I guess that wouldnt be considered a sin. Because they are against what God says is wrong. To me this is just one more instance of tolerance being a one way street. Stories of Jesus sharing love, community, and personal connection (even when he rebuked) fill the rest of the Gospels. I Corinthians 5:11-13 NKJV If you believe that, you need to reread that passage and see for what the whip was used. It uses the term error for all other deviations. Mike, David I am so truly, deeply sorry to read your story. I never did post anything publicly about my concerns with her stance, but she never did message me privately so I could have a conversation with her. Whenever I see Arthur Hackers 1892 painting, The Annunciation, I feel like Im intruding on an intimate conversation. That said, theres absolutely no need to try a person in the court of public opinion as they suss out their own responsibilities, sexual or otherwise, before God. I know that I was matching hyperbole with hyperbole. Thanks, Mike. The commandments are these: love God and love people. People with a homosexual struggle who have homosexual relations are not ANY more sinful than me when I lust after a woman who isnt my wife or you when you harbor hate in your heart toward a neighbor. Its kind and helpful. I know that my Jesus has chosen and includes me. Post-Bulletin, Austin MN. All. Its not as simple as that. How do we go about that privately if the person does not respond to you? Cracking a loud whip has always been the most effective means of controlling the movement of large groups of animals. Its Biblical. Im being more outspoken on this forum, but where I live I am highly criticized for spending most my time with unbelievers and showing them grace and even going into dark places. Holy, sacred space I thought I had healed, I thought I was coping well with sexism in my world. And making comments such as Jesus doesnt speak to homosexuality is, well, a bit simplistic. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sex sins, and marries another, is guilty of sex sins in marriage. Is she a pastor? These arguments always boil down to the same thing moving the fence, trying to let some sins be okay and castigating any Christian who holds to orthodoxy. The old you have to be tolerant of my intolerance argument. Also, you can say it all you want, but monogamous, consensual, same sex relationships are neither sinful, nor addressed in scripture At. I also smoke pipes and cigars occasionally, I feel the same way with this as well. When criticism comes lazily through gossip and public media it makes all Christians look like tools (angry, thoughtless, disrespectful, impatient people). I have seen the same kind of thing happen to people very dear to me too. Where do you get that any sex outside your strict standard is disapproved of by God? I have. TP: Tray Pruitt, founding pastor and elder at ANC Paul himself did not break up his letters into chapters and verses. In the meantime, lets pray for our sister currently in the crosshairs of unhealthy religion, knowing that at any time it could be you or me who draws the ire of her detractors. Of course homosexuality us wrong-its everywhere in the Bible. Shes just one person. I am so tried WITH Vicky of the implication that those that support same-sex marriage are not serious about the Word of God. If a sweet grandmother comes walking out of church and I kick her in the shins, she will probably react. It was also Jesus who affirmed what exactly a marriage covenant is when he said, from Genesis, that a man leaves his father and mother to cling to his wife and become one flesh. This is a really big deal to members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. http://bible.com/114/mrk.10.6-9.nkjv. Hey, Im not saying conservative evangelicalism is as bad as Jonestown, but I do know this: once the pack starts circling an identified victim theres very little stopping it. The protectors of orthodoxy appear to have drawn a bead on her as they did on Rachel Held Evans, Rob Bell and Brian McLaren before her. But those who claim his nameIm not even sure I want to be identified with them anymore. Its crazy to speculate what Jesus would or would not approve of if he didnt specifically speak about it. I wonder if anyone on here is going to change anyones mind. Anyway. Jesus didnt say a lot of things. How bad does it have to get? I think most Christians would agree with that. Judging by the comments I see here some of you really, really need it. 2701 S Lamar Blvd Austin, TX 78704. Its not a respectful desire to explore matters of the heart, to find common ground, or to discern a way to live respectfully with differences on non-core beliefs. Matthew 18:15 seems the answer to me. They pioneered Restore Austin, connecting churches to local and global non-profits for the individual, collective, and social renewal of Austin and beyond. We all know deep down whats right and whats wrong. When Jen Hatmaker wrote a raw and heartfelt blog about the pain shes been through over recent attacks and posted it on Good Friday, she was taken to task for daring to identify her pain with that of Christs. Youre right, Spencer, in my opinion. This is the Jesus I follow Have mercy, people. Austin Miniatures Western Barn Wild West Cowboys Conte . It was not like that from the beginning. Restore Groups (Missional/Incarnational Communities) are clusters of friends throughout the city in which community, communion, and mission unfold as a way of life . And it wasnt me but Jesus who said to lust in the heart is adultery, to hate in the heart is murder. And then there are the oft-cited examples of Pauls implicit endorsement of slavery and the reduced role/view of women. What comes to mind for me in countering your view is Matthew 18:6-9. I know it is hard to wrap your mind around it, but they took a procedural item and made it into a essential doctrine. Well, thats logical enough. But according to Bibles self-described marriage covenant, they are not marriage. The process in Matthew 18 is very clearly directed at sins that are not already known to the church. 1BN-General. You either believe or you dont and you either repent and work away from sin or you dont. Im not saying we should ignore theology that seems to be pushing the boundaries of orthodoxy, but it seems there should be a more gentle attitude when engaging or pushing back on beliefs which concern us. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. My friend Brett Trapp pointed out several things that we have no unity on . Someone who struggles with homosexual sin and constantly takes it to the cross of Christ, falls and gets back up seven more times is in a much better position gospel-wise than somebody who self-justifies their sin theologically. For the gossip its the same. Two different categories. I am never for calling names but when false teachings arise they must be dealt with. Yet, I find myself sobbing in my back yard as I listen, hoping no one hears . I dont know the specifics on Jen, so just a general comment/question: When, in your mind, must a leader be called out for heresy or false doctrine? Im hearing some noted preachers, and teachers of preaching, nervously proclaiming that the sermon is safe from the chatbot. But you miss the third part of Jesus statement regarding how to deal with the one who sins against you. Yes, an email, phone call, face-to-face communication is the first step, and inviting third parties (two or three witnesses) is the second step. Same with the others mentioned in the article. The author thought he had the dream job: pastoring a megachurch. Jesus says tons of things. Its all about whether you believe the word as literally Gods words or not. New Releases. If you think the person is sinning, that is something to engage privately. Does the pushing some people out of Gods Grace, shaming especially the most historically vulnerable, BRING people to faith, into a relationship with the Loving God? Dont misunderstand me. These people who destroyed the church, still kept their homes, their jobs, while me and my entire staff were left picking up the pieces to start our lives over again. I find many here lining up in a militaristic way about their faith. Truth is truth, however, and it is offensive. At what point, in your thinking, does the church get involved? Plain and simple. JM has stated from the pulpit that JH is his boss. It was a good article. I read the wounded wolves article and was disturbed by it as well. My 2 cents. When superstar Christians promote that agenda, in many peoples minds, it just increases the tendency towards this syncretism and there is genuine concern. Austin New Church (ANC) Back to Meetings. Way too much dialogue is done publicly and its not healthy. Or at least that is true for many. That was supposed to say. I recommend Frank Schaffers books to everyone. 100% with you, Mike Frost. Compassion before conviction was the first lesson I learned from that wonderful pastor, and I will never forget it. But if a person is a reviler someone who is rude, denigrates others, makes fun of them or tries to make them look small then we should keep away. And you know I respect you, right? And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. thanks, Yes, and you should NEVER chase them with a whip. Not to slam the person personally. shebearsbecausesheiscalled , 06/14/2019. BUILD COMMUNITY. To them, the Scriptures are clear on this issue, and they think the rest of us are in error by treating Sunday like a Sabbath. If you dont know where get a commentary or a Bible thst has an index of where versus are. Austin Miniatures Western Church Wild West Cowboys Conte Compatible Marx TSSD. No opposing historical views included. I dont know what it is that some of you have eaten but before commenting about a biblical issue perhaps it would serve you well to actually read the bible, brush up a little. Romans 1 is very very clear. Holly, let me guess: Youre heterosexual and married or in a relationship with a manmaybe you have kids. He also confines marriage to man and woman by reiterating the words of Genesis 1 and 2 in Matthew 19. Its not what you say but when and how you communicate it. The Scriptures are clear that believers of the Christian faith often speak in tongues. States Being informed invites the Spirit to lead, reduces our defensiveness, and gives us the confidence to love better. However, most respectful Facebook comments arguing for traditional viewpoints are deleted. Its a difficult place to beI feel like Im losing my home. I am sorry read your bible! But why does the pendulum have to swing to the other side on this, blatantly disregarding some of the approaches Jesus took and instead taking a hippie approach? Sunday, May 28, 2022. In seeking purity, all they do is destroy. Whether it be drunkiness,adultery or homosexuality. Grow up, Hatmaker. just like other sins being addressed-not just that one. Praise God David that He never left your side and He indeed had a better place for you. HeckJESUS said it. Put me off the internet for awhile, Ill tell ya.). The idea that only the things that Jesus says is sin is considered a sin. The greatest commandments : love God with your whole self, love your neighbour as yourself. Now I know youll pull the old , Well, Im not saying itGod is!, The God who said it is not good for the man to be alone is the same God who says, through Jesus, Some were made this way and some were born this way. There was ample time before their opinions were made public to meet with mentors and leaders to understand that what they say may not be well received. Yet, I am still saved. On her Instagram page, Hatmaker posted touching photos from Austin Pride Week, with the caption: "My beloved little church went downtown to the #AustinPrideParade and gave out Free Mom Hugs, Free Dad Hugs, Free Grana Hugs, and Free Pastor Hugs like it was our paying jobs. How did a blog post calling into question the way that conservative Christians attack each other descend into comments by Christians (Im assuming) attacking each other about SSM? Brett Trap has it going on. Hello! A church that brought me to Christ for the first time in my life, helped my family know and love God, led by a truly honest, good man, just vanished. So many people do want to be christians because so ofter christians are brutal to one another. Keep them to yourself and you will have no problems from me Try to use them as an excuse to destroy other people in love and the Spirit, and Ill burn you to the ground. This is a sobering appeal and I pray that yes, this discourse does save life and redeem souls from death. http://www.sptsusa.org/not-my-kid/. Bear one anothers burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. And Im not sure what youre getting at in regard to child abuse. This is not about Trump. I think everybody should be treated with love and respect at church no matter what their sexual orientation. My salvation experience was not based on my status as a repentant sinner. I will simply READ MY BIBLE. Ive found that people who define things outside of the bigger community of the global Church, through the centuries, have too narrow opinions on Jesus and Pauls teachings. Mike Frost , the author of this article, has attested to the fact that he believes homosexual practice is sin as well. I am ok if any of you disagree with me. However, I am 100% sure its not sin, so I feel like I am doing nothing wrong and am not presenting an affront to the gospel. I agree with you, Mike. Saying that a certain act is not a sin, is the same as saying that I dont need Jesus to wash away my sins.. You might as well say two people chatting over coffee should be held to a higher standard. As a pastor I realize that people in churches are now being taught the meaning of the Bible mainly on-line, through sermons, blogs, tv shows, and books, probably more than personal dialogue on Sunday mornings or in small groups, or over coffee with me or other leaders, whose ministries are disciple-making. Pics by Pauly Littrell) High profile people in high profile ministries invite both high profile praise and high profile criticism, with no accountability on the part of those meting out the criticism. And of COURSE he would use the same language they were using. However, we should do so with respect and love to those who are in error. Thanks for the great submission Mike. This is my view. But thanks be to God that Jesus has died for you and me despite our whining, our blasphemy, and our foolish and sinful ways. Get Directions . Theres a point to this but its not happening the right way. Its a beautiful picture, private and evocative. When you read Romans 1 and 2 together intelligently as one argument, you see that his whole point is that the people who are judging others are the ones in sin. But those who are outside God judges. He was talking about divorce, and the only reason he was talking about it in the first place was because the religious leaders were trying to fuck with him JUST LIKE THEY ARE DOING TO JEN HATMAKER. Writers love to do this and then proclaim, Look! I thank God I am not a reformed sinner. If they dont like it, they dump it. It is a gospel issue. How can you tell who is a false teacher and who is not (2 Peter 2:1-3)? Coitus is the passage of both parties through blood, the very biology of sex attesting to the covenant of what a marriage is. Come be part of what God is doing." But it feels more like an abusive home than a healthy one, a point also made in this blog. As someone mentioned earlier, child sexual abuse is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. But I know that God is on His throne and showing us the true Kingdom at hand, and it doesnt look like what we thought it would. i agree completely. both the shelter and the solitude of silence with the eloquence of Colm Bairad's gently captivating Irish . Jesus is in charge of me. You just made me so happy. Maybe. But those who are outside God judges. Of course, most us common folk dont have Jens email [or Rob Bells, or others], but I appreciate the way you make yourself accessible via social media. The same thing happened to Vicky Beeching, here in the U.K (although a lot of her ministry was in the states so she was battered from After working with them through many meetings, lunches, and doing everything I could for over six months, they did exactly what you said in your article, they created their posses, spread rumors about me, my wife, and undermined the leadership of my entire staff. Only confirmation bias and not cultural context could bring you to a 1st century Jewish Rabbi quoting poetry from the Hebrew scripture meaning anything about monogamous, consensual, same-sex relationships. Slow down and show love to someone that may be hurting. What comes to mind is what God said when his people were sacrificing their children to Baal and Moloch: It never even entered my mind though He never gave the explicit command in the Law, Thou shall not sacrifice your children, we know its wrong. But I understand itI was one of those at one time, too. Any more specific position is an interpretation.. I had never really heard of Hatmaker before and then I heard she inclusive of same sex relationships. Great food for thought. Only In Christ can brotherly love or sisterly trust take place. Actually S. Tannous what Ben E. Calvert said is VERY biblical. But an encounter with a homeless man who wanted his Texan boots changed all that. We all should know what that really is. Re JH and accountability, its useful to look at the timeline of events that have led up to this. And maybe even a little doctrinaire? Even if you hate me for it. Dude you are completely crazy and maybe you need to take. It all matters, but, just sayin If you write a blog to slam her, or design a demeaning meme, or post an essay-style comment on her blog youre not only being hurtful, but also completely ineffective at the very thing you claim to be doing. Fri, Mar 10 . I have been in the conservative church for over half a century, and Im getting to the point where I feel that if the conservative church wants to exclude me, then so be it. Yours is the only comment on this blog that makes any sense to me. Just playin devils advocate here a bit, but when we say Jesus didnt speak to homosexuality, are we seriously suggesting he didnt comment on sexuality itself as it stood in the Scriptural tradition? The Justice Primer: An 8-Week Guide to Social Impact. Find a way to live out the love of Christ. I normally see this belief system among my fellow women and with weak men. Im out of the loop, but it seems to me that the comments are illustrating the point of the blog. NO sin is okay with God, from the way you lust in your mind about someone walking by you down the street or when you utter even the smallest curse against someone in your mind (Jesus said those crimes are adultery and murder, respectively). So where does same-sex marriage fall on this? But what if your kid asks if he can kill the neighbors punk kid because God did it. Will you tell your child he cant do that? We are an Open and Affirming congregation in the . JENNIFER and Brandon Hatmaker are known for their work with Austin New Church. Maybe thats an indication for me to say that they are the kind of disciples I want to be. I know it is Leviticus but that is the o my thing from ?Leviticus we hear about. This is what your core gospel issue does to people. How do you justify that? What is being said here is that for someone to say that God says that homosexuality is not a sin is in absolute and total error! Huge fan of the underdog. Is BH on staff at ANC in any paid or unpaid position? Entire nationsmen, women, and childrenwere slaughtered this way. And if so, do you ask them how they justify it? In January of 2018, after coming under the . Yes and amen. But since Hollywood and the media/culture in general are winning in making it look like anyone who thinks it isnt are big bad bullies, well, I guess it makes if the du jour topic st the moment amongst those so called Christians who want to be cool and maybe just maybe more accepted by the world and then hey look Im getting more famous and earning more money-just a thought.. Do you know anyone whos a part of the Churches of Christ? Jesus gives the guy a list of commands to keep, and then he tells him, If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. (NASB) Jesus was very clearly telling the guy how to inherit eternal life. Timeline: If you love someone enough to confront them, then personally (in person) is the way to go, or through private mail to media personalities. Yes, Ryan, that is Gods plan. I had never thought of that. In the end, people are going to follow their hearts/instincts. What churches could learn from the Pub Choir phenomenon, Breaking Up the Family in the Pursuit of Uniformity, The Micro-Shift That Could Be a Gear Changer for Your Church, Women in Ministry Megalist - Women's Role in the Church Resources, Wise Words Wednesday: The Brutality of Unhealthy Religion | GAP COMMUNITY, Being chiefly concerned with things to avoid, Measuring quantities (of giving/serving/attending etc.). You are mischaracterizing the way orthodox believers view Jen. Is a JH an elder? I just ran across your blog recently. That is, as one man and one woman? But He didnt. However I didnt make the connection with Jen. If you dont agree with it, then say so-though your wrong to disagree with it- but dont say something isnt there when it is. Paul wrote about some people who were going to temple orgies in Corinth. Throughout the week, our campus is alive with energy and hope. Are you who create these arguments so entrenched in your open orthodoxy unable to see the futility of a man-made salvation where there isnt such a thing as sin, and therefore no need for a Savior from sin? March 26: Remaining elders, including BH, re-affirm the affirming position first announced to ANC via the internet interview. Many first century believers did, and we dont have real solid evidence that it ever was meant to be retired. To us, clearly. The gospel is the gospel. I know I will forever be grateful to God for the two years I had at that church and the people I met that changed my life for the better. If you work on the Sabbath, how do you justify that? Thanks, man. both with the questions validity and the proper response. We skip over the times God commissions his people to kill in his name. But the feeding frenzy around Jen Hatmaker isnt that. We should love every one but never condone sin. Furthermore, did you know that the Biblical Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday? Love, Garry. I dont know the answer, but Jesus was public in his condemnation plenty of times too. Im not. Haters will be haters. Get the bloodlust out of your system, people. Just like many other sins, of course. However, if you are saying that it is sin, but teaching theological self-justification is not false doctrine, its being double-minded. IN-PERSON | 2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704 ONLINE | Facebook or YouTube I'M NEW HERE. Youre right-I have to say that it is God saying it-its all over the Bible- I am so tired of the implication that someone who supports same-sex marriage (or any other cultural buzz issue) is not serious about the Word of God. During these six months, I couldnt sleep, I began to have periodic heart palpitations, and went into a dark place of depression. Sunday, May 28, 2022 Ascension Day. If Jen Hatmakers beliefs prevent one teen from committing suicide because they are gay then maybe all this public scrutiny is worth it. I know lots of sincere believers who practice infant baptism. In like fashion, conservatives are trying to reason from Scripture why homosexual sex (as well as any sex outside of marriage, including LOOKING at another person with lust in your heart) is damnable sin but thanks be to God we are SAVED in CHRIST from it! This blog post is corrective, but it is not hateful. And as a point of note, the closest he ever came to talking about homosexuality, he explained that in heaven, there is no such thing as marriage and that all marriage contracts are nullified since we shall be as the angels which either means angels get it on with whoever they like or they have no sexual characteristicswhich means that if there is sexual desire in heaven, it would be homosexual as wed all be the same sex. The same way with this as well are clear that believers of the blog of a... If you dont theological issue isnt one of them am ok if of. 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Is Matthew 18:6-9 any discipline to join us in a week-long celebration of student-led performance too much dialogue done... As someone mentioned earlier, child sexual abuse is not called out publically, are!